What's a writer like Kaisha-Dyan McMillan doing in the weed business?

The San Jose State ad school scribe on telling cannabis stories for money

Of all the Sojourn conversations, this mirthful dialogue with cannabis advertising expert and educator Kaisha-Dyan McMillan might be the one that taught me the most.

KDM and I met in Berkeley, around brunch on a Sunday, at one of her Wondering About Weed education events. As mentioned late in this talk, the vibe in that room was something special. Effortlessly necessary. That damn vibe may have been unforgettable. 

Kaisha-Dyan McMillan

So, I’ve made a point of talking to the person whom I’ve presumptuously abbreviated to KDM, and bringing her to you. What follows is the print representation of our recent Zoom conversation, lightly edited. Any initial awkwardness you may sense–even in print—is probably because of my loud dislike of advertising. The copy writer, 49, took my position deftly. KDM’s reaction to the Avon parties that my mom attended in the 70s is better content still.

As I said, this chat taught me a lot. As an added bonus, it’s always fun to have a guest who can find the humor in American racism, ironic and otherwise.

In case you don’t make it to the end, please note Wondering About Weed’s “Cannabis 101” event at the North Berkeley branch. 

Donnell Alexander: We've had one interesting encounter, in which we’ve been in the same physical space. That made me want to talk to you. I was very curious about that event, but let’s work up to that.

I think of you as being in advertising. Is that right?

Kaisha-Dyan McMillan: I’m in marketing. I’m senior content manager with AROYA. So, by trade I am a copywriter. I went to San Jose State specifically for that, a million years ago. I majored in advertising and minored in creative writing, because I was like, “I want to write copy.”

DA: When did you know that you wanted to write copy?

KDM: I saw a special on TV when I was, like, 13 and the 80s were the heyday of advertising. “Got Milk?” started in the 80s. “Just Do It” started in the 80s. “Where’s the Beef?” was everybody’s favorite. I remember, my father bought a game—remember VCR games, where you’d put in a video tape? [Laughs] I’m dating myself.

DA: Yeah!

KDM: And you’d follow along. It was a game where you identified these advertisements. “Where’s the Beef?” was on the cover. During that time there were major campaigns that are still going now.

I saw a special, I think it was on NBC, speaking to some noteworthy ad campaigns. And on this show they interviewed creative directors, people behind the Got Milk? campaign. I think Just Do It. A couple of other big ones, and I was just completely mesmerized. It’s the ultimate in tight storytelling.

DA: I’ll be honest with you: I always had an allergy to advertising. Later, in my forties I did some work and respected it a lot. And I’ve incorporated a lot of it in my storytelling.

At the beginning, when we were in college, I had a friend who started a campaign to have advertising removed from the component of communications that we were in.

KDM: Oh wow, okay.

DA: And, I gotta tell ya. I supported him on that. [Laughter[] But I also think the place of advertising in our culture has changed. It’s almost as though there’s a unity in storytelling.

KDM: A lot of people don’t support advertising. It’s interesting. I don’t know that I love seeing so many billboards and things like that. What I appreciated about it was the compelling nature of words. That a headline or a tagline could really motivate you to take some kind of action.

When we were coming up in the college era there was no social media. But magazine ads would be like editorial. It would be like: Image + two, three columns of copy. And that is what I came up in. Also: At San Jose State, advertising was part of the journalism program, but you had to take one or two psychology classes. And statistics. So, it was just interesting—all of those pieces together. Of course it makes more sense now, at this stage of my career.

I just always found it really interesting that words could convince people enough to go out and buy something.

DA: As you talk about this I wonder how close I am to the line, how far away am I from being an advertising person?

I want to ask you about your entry into the world of cannabis. How did that happen?

KDM: The most roundabout way possible. I absolutely was a believer in “Just Say No.” I was curious, very interested in drugs, but terrified that if I took a puff I would be on the crack pipe within minutes—

DA: Stop!

[Laughter]

This is the part where I have to ask how old you are. It’s kind of mysterious—you could be any age.

KDM: I know. Black people. I’m 49, I’ll be 50 this year.

DA: You were a young person when “Just Say No” hit.

DKM: Yeah, I grew up in the 80s, but my dad smoked weed. I didn’t make this connection. I understood, “Just Say No”—stay away from drugs. But my dad—who was a good person, had a job and was functioning—liked to puff on a joint every once in a while. “He seems alright.” And then, I grew up in Berkeley; there’s clouds of smoke over that town.

Maybe I didn’t trust drugs, but I thought weed was okay? I don’t know, but it took a long time. I tried cannabis in college for the first time and it was not a good experience. Throughout my 20s I tried it on and off and at one point, in my 30s, I lived in New York. That’s where I first encountered home delivery of cannabis. That was innovative, in the early-to- mid 2000s. Home delivery? Amazing.

Really, the way I got into it was in a relationship with somebody who was growing. I’d never seen the plant before. Experiencing the plant through the whole growth cycle, through the harvest and then consuming it with someone who I felt comfortable with started changing my mindset. I was in my 30s. I’d gotten into cannabis late.

This was, what, 2012, 2011? I got a medical card, because that’s what we had available. I went to Purple Heart dispensary—shoutout to Keith Stephenson—first Black man to open a dispensary. Did not know anything about him or any of that. I was trying to navigate something new and I thought they did a good job of helping me out. The more I tried cannabis the more I started to see some cool benefits. I really became obsessed and I ended up going to Oaksterdam [University] and doing a weekend intensive.

DA: What did it do for you?

KDM: They offered a little weekend course that was, like, $645. So that was a little more affordable to me than a full semester. I was able to put it on the credit card. Over two days—Saturday and Sunday, eight hours each day—it was like an hour and 15 minute breakdown of cannabis in all these different areas. Law, policy, horticulture, cooking with it—all of these different things. I was like, this is it. This is where I belong.

DA: Do you feel like you were making up for lost time?

KDM: That potential—going for it in this industry. This is where I said, Okay, this is what I want to do. I really want to write copy about cannabis.

DA: What was your first work like?

KDM: At the time they had the East Bay Canna Community meeting. That was over by The Lake once a month. That’s where I started my networking and connecting with folks. That led to me getting a job with Green Rush Consulting. Remember Green Rush Consulting?

I joined around 2016-2017, at first as a marketing consultant and then I ended up being onboard as a writer. In addition to marketing content, I was also writing for applications, business plans, things like that. So, I’m a pretty well rounded writer.

DA: As a writer, do you think of yourself as someone whose specialty is cannabis?

KDM: Absolutely. I really made it a point to carve out cannabis as my niche. That was very conscious on my part. And I feel like at this point I’m a subject matter expert; I’m a cannabis educator also. But you kinda spoke to it when you talked about the storytelling aspect: Being a journalist is one thing. Being a copy writer is another thing. I think that with personal branding being the norm there isn’t separation between the two, but the act of doing a journalism piece and a content piece is just so different. [Laughs] Different brain stuff happening.

DA: How are you separating the two these days? You do do journalism.

KDM: I dip in occasionally. I’m going to do more this year. I’m really feeling a pull to it. It’s been a challenging few years, because of the world and life. About three or four years ago I found cannabis journalism especially frustrating. For one thing, it was a muscle that I was trying to work on; using my skills in a different way. The thought of being objective or writing a journalistic piece is like, incredibly difficult for me to comprehend. [Laughs] I don’t understand that, and I was trying to do that. It was too hard.

DA: You mean being objective?

KDM: Being objective, yeah. Writing a piece and trying to be objective about something I really care about. I was really seeking stories about, you know, social equity, about Black and brown people… women trying to make it, and those are hard. The emotional aspect of those are hard to anticipate. It actually kinda took a toll. Pitches were hard for me to get out. I felt like there was a lot more interest in the negative, especially when it came to social equity, than there was in anything else.

DA: Interest from whom?

KDM: I was mostly pitching cannabis media. I didn’t go out of that too much. I’d written for The Bold Italic and the East Bay Express… maybe it’s where my mind was, but I just really felt like there was a little more interest in stories that were on the more negative side, maybe highlighting all of the problems with social equity. As opposed to an arc that maybe spoke to the problems, but on the other side of it this person has a road to a victory, success, they achieve success.

DA: When I wrote about social equity I found that to be the case. It’s like anything when writing about reparations—I’m writing about reparations right now—you cannot help but think that the people who run these websites are invested in these things not working.

KDM: Totally.

DA: I was very fortunate to be working with USC and their Health Journalism program kind of ran interference for me. Their credibility helped me get published in places. The fact is, if the subject weren’t so charged and related to reparations the series would have been in a much bigger publication.

That’s what we call systemic racism, people!

KDM: Yay! Feeling it every day!

[Laughter]

DA: I had wanted to ask this question first, but it’s not a grown-up question: What about advertising is like Mad Men?

KDM: Confession: I have never seen an episode of Mad Men.

[Laughter]

But I understand the premise. And I understand the time period being represented. My mom also worked in advertising in 70s, 80s, and she gave me an earful. I did work for an ad agency for a short time, during the dot-com period. I was not writing content. I got in there doing media buying, which is horrible. That’s not my skill set. A lot of drinking. Beers were stocked in the fridge. Parties were on. Remember the Bay Area during the dot com period? All of the parties had sushi.

A lot of intensity, late nights. That’s not my jam. I don’t do well with that. Well, cannabis is not that different: A lot of dudes. It was not diverse, the environment I was working in, necessarily. And this was during the early days of online advertising. That’s when I was working as an online ad buyer. I was gone in four months. I said, “This is not for me.”

Yeah, I always wanted to work in an ad agency. That was always the dream, but I just couldn’t get in there.

DA: Are you happy in cannabis?

KDM: Yeah, and it’s not an easy industry.

DA: I’m surprised to hear you say it that plainly. Is it a tough row to hoe? I’m trying to figure out who makes money in cannabis.

KDM: I don’t know. When you figure it out will you let me know?

I work for an ancillary business and they made money before, doing something else. So, I’m very fortunate in that.

DA: What do you mean?

KDM: I work for AROYA, which makes sensors and software for cannabis cultivators. The original parent company created the sensors and the sensors were already being used in other industrial environments. The cannabis package came out about three or four or years ago.

DA: They have deep pockets. Very deep pockets.

KDM: Did, to start the business. But now we’re a cannabis start-up and there are challenges with that, if cannabis businesses aren’t making any money they aren’t paying for AROYA. And so we feel that. But I’m grateful that I do have a regular paycheck and I’m paid to write content in this industry. It’s like a unicorn for me. For me, it really is like a dream come true. I love what I do.

With that said, this industry is so hard. I was just at an event earlier this week in Sacramento, and it was just bros—white dudes everywhere. Still, people can be very dismissive. I introduce myself, you don’t look me in the eye. That shit is still happening. The best part is, I’ve had therapy. That’s Number One. [Laughs] Number Two… I’m not going anywhere.

[Laughter]

DA: People wonder what it’s like in the industry and I think there might be the idea that you leave all of that stuff behind. What would surprise people about the industry?

KDM: I think that we aren’t all millionaires working in legal weed. We’re not all flush with cash. In fact, most of us—except a select few from the top, are struggling to make it. There’s an impression that if you’re working in weed then you’re rolling in it. That’s not true. It’s dealing with way more than any other industry in America, and because of that it’s hard to make money.

DA: How much of that difficulty goes back to prohibition mindsets?

KDM: Definitely a sizable portion of it. Do you mean the mentality?

DA: Just like the overtaxation and local control. And—bless Cat Packer wherever she is today—

KDM: Talk about doing the Lord’s work.

DA: Just all of the extra stuff. I want to ask you about being in San Jose at that particular time when tech was booming: You would never treat tech the way they treat weed, and it has the capacity to be as valuable. There are people who will argue that the potential for the plant can rival that of tech, and we can have that conversation some other time, but they make it impossible for this industry.

KDM: Yeah. What’s that American mindset of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? Well, you’re taxed for having the bootstraps. I’m baffled by the reluctance to support an actual American industry, a homegrown American industry. And it’s all based on outdated mindsets.

It’s almost like some people are doubling down on their outdated mindset. They’re just so resistant to where you’re denying tax money and access to medicine to people. I don’t understand that. It’s just weird to me.

DA: It’s weird, but I do understand that. If we were to really hone down and focus on what the the underlying issues are, we’d see the same things that are keeping this prohibition mindset in place are the things that keep the MAGA people in play. The idea of what’s proper for America, what’s evil. The threats, and they tend to be people who look like you and me. Cannabis kind of falls under this. I think we’ve under-discussed the nature of the resistance to cannabis. It’s about race mixing, you know?

KDM: Oh my gosh, right?

DA: I’m in Sacramento and I just told my friend who’s hosting me, I said, “We cannot have a real conversation about race until we start talking about… white women’s relationships with Black men on the low. [Laughs] I feel like every woman who’s fucked a Black man on the low needs to step forward. They’ll come forward and be these people that they didn’t know… and we can just deal with this stuff, all the Mandingo shit.

KMD: Oh my god, please have that podcast.

[Laughter]

DA: It’s be like, now we’ll really talk about what’s what.

KMD: We don’t really talk about anything as it relates to racism in this country. We try to act like it doesn’t… Nikki Haley. We try to act like the majority of the population is imagining things. It’s nuts! It’s nonsense!

But imagine if we all had a joint and just sat in a circle and say, “Let’s just hash this shit out.” President Biden let’s just hash this shit out with [reaches out of frame] this container of—what is this I had today—Cam’s Permanent Marker. I bet you we could get so much done. Come with me to the White House. We’ll get a little sesh goin’…

DA: That’s a hard issue to switch from, but I want to touch base on this because I said we were going to: San Jose State. You finished in ‘97. Was that pre-tech? What was the environment like on campus? As someone who was interested in advertising, what were you aiming for?

KMD: I remember a computer lab, only open for a certain amount of time everyday, and a friend and I were exchanging letters. We were pen pals, and she was like, “Kaisha, you have this thing called email?” And she explained to me what it was, and said, “Here’s my email address.” It went from one line of the letter to the second line [Laughs] Because email addresses were .edu.1123575. It just went on and on.

So, I remember going to the computer lab and being like, “What does this mean?” It took me a while because AOL came a couple of years after.

It’s interesting because, while all of this stuff was swirling around in the background, I don’t remember there being an especially tech-heavy energy at San Jose State other than, yes, there was a computer lab. My goal was advertising. I thought I was going to be a creative director, one of the characters from Melrose Place or something. I just wanted to be a boss.

DA: You figured you’d be in San Francisco.

KDM: Or New York one day, when the dream was New York. I’d be presenting boards for TV ads. That’s what I thought it was going to be, and then online advertising is where I got my first job and I was like, “What the fuck is all of this?” Because none of that was part of the instruction.

DA: You’re in the advertising world, but copy writing doesn’t mean in 2024 what it meant even meant back then.

KDM: Not at all, no. It’s all just content writing. I produce, I write content.

DA: How does Wondering About Weed fit into it?

KDM: That’s my side business. It’s a cannabis education business. My friend Penny Barthel, she is a home cultivator, she’s basically becoming an influencer. She’s incredible with plants, grows weed in her garden—grows monster, gorgeous plants. She’s a recipe developer, so she makes cannabis infusions. We teach people how to grow and make their own stuff. We created a business that delivers the type of cannabis education that we wish we had, which is sitting in someone’s living room and we’re not intimidating, simplifying all of this madness.

But our goal with these classes is to also bring in some kind of awareness around the reality and consciousness around social justice, that there are still people in prison, the lack of diversity, supporting small farms, social equity. Helping people be a little more informed with their choices.

That just was born out of a mutual passion. She’s into the cultivation side, I’m into the consumer experience and the culture. We just ended up marrying these two together.

DA: Did you use your skills to help her become that influencer?

KDM: I gave a “Cannabis 101” talk at Hipline, which is a dance studio for women in Oakland. She was at that class. We already were friends, but we just hadn’t talked about this particular topic before. So, we went for coffee and she was just like, Urrrgggh, and off she went: Graduated from Oaksterdam a certified horticulturist. So, yeah, I’ll go ahead and admit that I was kind of the inspiration that kind of led to Wondering About Weed.

DA: I met you at a Wondering About Weed event, and I got interested in you then, because it had a vibe that… I would almost use the word “wholesome” for it. We’re going through a thing right now, with all of this conspiracy stuff, because there’s a loneliness, an isolation and a crisis in America right now. I thought the women in that room… there was kind of an upscale white lady vibe goin’—

KDM: Oh yeah. They’re the ones who pay the ticket prices. We’re going to make videos though. So those will be less expensive and available on demand.

DA: How would that work?

KMD: We’re going to teach these classes that we do in person. We’re going to make video versions of them and have them available on the website, where people anywhere can watch them. We do so much in our classes and they’re so involved and we give a fat-ass goodie bag that the tickets are expensive.

But you’re right—rich white lady vibe at the event, but a diverse panel. Diverse perspectives.

DA: It was not uncomfortable at all. The event felt like it could happen anywhere in America. Any neighborhood. I’m old enough to remember what Avon parties were like—

KDM: Yes, me too!

DA: It was that kind of vibe.

KDM: Oh my God, that is such a compliment. And I’m saying our agenda here, but we’re trying to indoctrinate our people into understanding cannabis on a different level. It’s legal where you live—congratulations, fantastic. But I want you to know why it’s so expensive. I want you to know why it matters where you buy it and who you support. And if your city isn’t allowing retail, you need to contact some people on your city council. That’s a big issue in California—half of our cities don’t even allow cannabis retail. That’s impacting the industry.

DA: What’s next for you?

KDM: For me the theme is raising my profile. This is bigger than me and I am just passionate about my work. I love what I do with AROYA, so I’m going to stay there as long as that feels good for everybody involved. With Wondering About Weed, on February 21st we’re having our first “Cannabis 101” in a public space. We’re going to be at the North Berkeley branch. I’m so excited about that.